Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome back to be in Single Club. I'm Kristen.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: I'm Summer. This is the podcast where we bring you all the comfort and gossip of a regular book club. But just between you, me, and her.
[00:00:11] Speaker A: And you may be wondering what the B and the C stands for. Well, the B stands for baffled, and.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: The C stands for cocaine.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Okay.
But how are you doing today, Summer, my love?
[00:00:23] Speaker B: We're skipping right over that one.
I feel fine. And I feel a little passionate today about the book that we had read.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I just started a brand new job and I'm having a great time.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: That's fantastic. I also went back to work today.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Whoa.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: And my teacher is back, so that's fun.
Other than that, I actually ate shit today as I was walking home, and so now my knee is all banged up and I am hurting a lot.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: That's not good.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: No. I currently have an ice pack on it.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Oh, no.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: So if you hear something, that might be it.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Oh, no. Okay. I don't think I've heard anything, but.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Today we're gonna be going over the first half of Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. This was published October 25, 1920.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Okay, so this was published in the 1900s.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: Yes, but it takes place in the 1870s, so 50 years beforehand. She was born January 1962, and she was educated as a young age. She didn't want to do all the fashion things that her mother and everyone told her to do. She liked to read. She had actually published a couple of things when she was younger. She started writing poetry and fiction at a young age, and she was 15 when her first published work appeared. She was translating something, but she also wrote her own stuff. Then she got married and she got divorced in 1913. Published something else in 1917, and then in 1920, she published age of Innocence.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Interesting, huh? I want to ask you why you chose this book.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Okay, so I have a couple of other Edith Wharton books. I have her short story, and I had heard of this book. I mean, a lot of these classics, I haven't actually heard anything about 95% of the time. I just know that they're classics and that I need to read them at some point in my life. So this is one of those. I need to read it at some point in my life. We're reading this as a book club to read books. So there you go.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna take that answer.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: And the other thing was that I wanted a female author, I feel like, because we did Tolkien and then we did Orwell and Camus we did Pride and Prejudice, but I feel like we should just have another female up in here. So that's why I also did it right.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: A lot of classics are males and on my end a lot of the fantasy books we read are females. For our authors.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Okay, so it's January at the opera in the early 1870s, we have our protagonist, Newlin Archer. He arrives late to the opera because that's kind of the thing to do in New York. And he comes at 10, climax of the opera. Just how he likes it. He likes thinking about doing things more than actually doing things sometimes. So that's another reason why it took him so long. Not only because it was fashionable, but because he just thought about going. He's like, oh yeah, that would be a really good time. But like actually going was hard for him to do. So it took him a while to get there. Once he's at the opera, he's looking around and he ends up finding the box of a Mrs. Manson Mingott who is isn't there because apparently she's just too fat. That's what it said in the book was that she's too fat and so she can't go out all the time like she wants to, but she has her daughter in law and her daughter in there that are in the little box that she has. And she doesn't usually go up along with another young woman who he likes to look at. This young woman is Mae Welland, who told him today that she cared for him, which AKA means that they got engaged. He wants her to read other Faust plays because this opera that they're watching is a Faust play. And she seems fascinated by what she's seeing. And he can tell that he needs to educate her because that's what good husbands do. And so he just cannot wait to read Faust to her so that she isn't so simple anymore because he doesn't want a simple wife. And then there is another young woman in that same box that's drawing attention with her dress because of how low cut it is. And the men around him start talking and. And they're trying to figure out who she is, what she's doing. And one of them, who knows like all the relations of everybody says I don't think the Mingots would have tried it on. Which basically means I didn't think that they would let her accompany them with her scandal. Like I didn't think they would try on accompanying her in public. I thought they were just kind of like bye.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: I love listening. To recap this chapter Because I previously said it to you non recorded. But I didn't understand a single thing happening in this chapter because it is above my intelligence level reading this thing. And I got none of that.
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: None of it.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I didn't really know what we were doing yet. We're kind of just like, this is a guy and this guy is just there and he likes a girl. Okay, that's it. We're just kind of here.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: So our next chapter, Newland, our main guy, is embarrassed because of all the males in his box and in the audience are watching the other box because this random girl is there and she's scandalous. He's trying to decide on a course of action in order to protect the girl who's currently in that box, which is May, his betrothed. And he realizes that the mystery lady is his fiance's cousin. She, according to all the rumor and gossip, has left her husband and is staying with her grandmother. Newlin says that he approves of family loyalty but thinks they shouldn't have paraded her around in public because she is clearly the black sheep of the family. He starts listening to all the other men making jokes about Ellen's past. And that's the cousin and the scandalous girl in the other booth. And he gets more embarrassed that his betrothed is with her. And then he goes into his fiance's booth to ask permission to announce their engagement. And she's gung ho and agrees. And then she introduces him to her cousin who recalls them playing together as children.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Oh, no. A strange new girl has come to interrupt a poor, unsuspecting man's life. Whatever shall he do?
[00:06:51] Speaker B: I love this sarcasm about this plot because I feel the same way.
I'm trying to be really nice today. Okay.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: No, but that's basically what it is. But this is the problem, is it's one of the first. And that's when it gets the credit.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: That is true.
Because it's so old.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: It was probably one of the first times that happened in a book.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: And written by a woman is the other thing. Yeah.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: So Chapter three. They go to a ball after the opera. The woman who throws it, who is a Mrs. Julius Beaufort, has been able to wiggle her way into higher society since her house is the best. And her husband is rumored to have shading financial dealings and is unfaithful. But because of how charming he is and how much their house is nice, everyone kind of just like, it's fine. Some say that Mr. Beaufort is actually the one that takes care of all the dinner parties and everything, and that she's just kind of simple and that she just does whatever he wants. Our Newland Archer finds his betrothed May, and can tell that she's telling her friends about the engagement at the ball. But he's disappointed that it's happening in the middle of the ballroom, even though he asked for it to be announced, because he's like, this is such an intimate thing of the heart. It should be told in an intimate way, which is like, okay, dude, whatever.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: For real.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: So then they dance, they talk, and he knows she'll always say the right thing, and it makes him happy. He lies to her, telling her that he didn't have a chance to talk to her cousin about their engagement. And she makes him promise to tell Ellen himself because she's like, well, I probably should have told her sooner. And now that everyone else knows, somebody needs to tell her. And because you were talking to her, I can just say, like, oh, I told you to tell her. And then you can just take the blame for it because somebody needs to tell her. We're actually families. It kind of is important. He does agree to do this, but Ellen is not at the ball, and she says it's because she just didn't think that her gown was nice enough. But Archer knows that it's because there's a shadow on her reputation. It was better that she just didn't come to the ball at all. I'm wondering how much Mae knows exactly about this quote unquote scandal that's on her cousin's reputation.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: The vibe I was getting is that everyone knows, like, literally everyone. So May, her mom, him, all of the guys who was in his booth 10 seconds ago, we just didn't know the exact extent.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: It was like, yeah, she left her husband. That was it. I'm like, but what does she. No, no.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Why is it so scandalous?
Newland and his fiance, May and her mother go to Ms. Mingott's house. Don't know if I'm saying that right. They're, like, gushing over the engagement ring. They talk about their family blessings and when the wedding will be. And then Ellen is there, and she invites Newland to come visit her.
And he's like, that's not right, because a married woman shouldn't ask an engaged man to call on her. And so he was really off put by it.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: And then he was very happy that he was engaged to the type of sort that knew what they're doing. The New York sort, meaning, like, he's so glad that his own fiance wouldn't take such liberties with men.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: As he's falling in love with her. My main problem with this book is I wasn't sure if when he said that, somebody was actually thinking something. Sometimes he talks about Mrs. Mingos and he's like, I could tell by her eyes that she meant blah, blah, blah. And like, do you as a character think that? Or is the author talking through you and saying that's actually what the other character is saying? That's the only thing that I was cut off by. So I was like, are you just supplementing these thoughts into people's heads and just confirming yourself, or are you actually reading them correctly and that's what they're saying.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: That was my only thing. Are these people agreeing with you or are they not agreeing with you and you just think they are?
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I didn't notice that, but I also didn't know what was happening during any part of this book. So.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: So then Mr. Jackson, he's an older guy. He has a sister. He's the one who has the main genealogy of all the families and knows who's connected to everybody. He likes to gossip, and so he comes to dine at the Archers. The Newland and Archer name are both different families, but Newland Archer himself as a character. Him and his sister take after the Newland side looks wise. Him and his sister and his mother are all close. They talk about all of this. This area is probably what you're talking about. They just go into, like, New York society and how these people know these people and why these people are connected to these people. You're like, this doesn't matter to me.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's freaking Tolkien all over again.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: This is so much easier for me to follow than Tolkien, because at least they're characters in the story that come up again because they're all the same connected families, and so they all have to interact with each other. So you do know personalities by the end. Whereas I feel with Tolkien, it was like, and this random town that we're never gonna see again. You need to know the history of them.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Here's my thing is I feel like he has one stray branch, but it's straightforward and it's a stray branch. But I'm talking about one thing happening right them.
It was like all of these branches with side branches and more branches. And, yeah, it may come back into the main storyline, but I'm like, there's too many. There's just too Many. I can't follow it. I don't understand. Yeah, I'm sorry, guys. I'll stop yelling now.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: So at dinner, Jackson and Archer's family want to talk about Ellen, but they're slightly embarrassed to do so. That Archer is connected to the family. Everyone says that May is the best match for Archer and that she's so lovely and that he can't do anything better than her. But then Archer defends Ellen after they talk about her again, that she might be disgraced by the last marriage, but, like, it wasn't her fault. He obviously was cheating on her, and even that, I'm not entirely sure what he was doing. Was he abusive? Was he just cheating on her? Like, what exactly are the details of what happened there? Not entirely sure at this point, for me personally, unless it was in the book and I just didn't catch it. So he defends her and says women should have the same freedoms as men and be able to choose what they want to choose when it comes to divorces and who they love and if they want to be with somebody who might be cheating on them. And his sister's like, oh, I think she's here looking for a divorce. And Archer's like, oh, okay, good for her. Good for her. She should. I approve. I think that's the right thing. If she doesn't want to be with him, then it's fine. And he says that it's all hypercritical when they talk about her. If they were to talk about a man, they would not talk about him in this way. He does note that Count Alenski has not tried to get his wife back, so that doesn't bode well for her, I guess, because her value is tied to a man, of course.
So it was just a terrible time to be a woman in general.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: It definitely was.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: Not that it's any better now, but Preach.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: Newlyn then sits and thinks about his upcoming marriage. Most of this chapter is him just thinking thoughts.
He's distraught thinking about Ellen. Her actions aren't acceptable in society and it's making him upset. The Loval Mingots send out invitations to a formal dinner for Ellen, and within two days all of society rejects it and they send their regrets to not be able to attend.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: At this point in the story, I feel like Archer does like May, but thinking about the relationship more, he's worried that it'll be loveless like all the other marriages that he knows. And he's beginning to have doubts that he didn't have before, which is just so like a Man, girl, you're saying.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Nothing but gospel tonight.
I haven't disagreed with a single thing out of your mouth today.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: So Mrs. Vanderil Luden, I think is how you're gonna say her name. And Mrs. Archer, who is obviously Archer's mother. They're cousins and she's nice, but it sometimes freaks Newland out because he's like, there are women in this society who are way meaner than you, and I. I trust them a little bit more than you, but it's fine. Mrs. Archer tells Mr. And Mrs. Van der Luden about what happened to the Countess. And they don't like what's happening on principle because if her family took her back, then society should take her back. They shouldn't cast her out because her family didn't cast her out. Mrs. Van der Luden is apparently sick, and so they don't go out very often. She's basically an invalid. Instead of going out to the Mingots dinner party, they invite the Countess and her family to a dinner which should raise her standing since the van der Ludens are pretty high in society. And because they don't make many appearances in society, when they do make their parents known, it's all the more grand and special. Perception is everything in this town. So New York. That's exactly what New York is.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Even now.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Very true. So at the party, Newlin thinks that the Countess is being pale, but she's still somehow very confident and regal. He's very mixed in his thoughts at the moment. After dinner, when they talk, he realizes that she's actually sad and very upfront about it with him. And he's like, oh. She reveals that she just wants to be all things American. She touches his leg and he kind of gets turned on. That's the vibe I was getting. He was like, oh.
She tells him that she will see him tomorrow, and he just says okay, and accepts it. And then he watches the people who had originally denied her and they all sent their regrets. Now they're all getting introduced to her because of her new friendship with the van der Ludens.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
And this is when I feel like he's becoming, for sure, for sure, obsessed with him. Especially because he did get hard when she touched his leg.
I can't do anything for a year because I'm engaged. What is this? Anyway, Archer goes and sees Ellen at 5:30. She lived in an odd part of town who's near a journalist that he knows. And like I said, he and May will not get married until next autumn. Mind you, this is Still. Still January or February. So they're not going to get married until a year past that past autumn. So he does have a while to go. He also didn't tell May that he was coming to see her cousin because she told him, be nice to her. So he's like, that just gives me every leeway that I could possibly have. It's fine. I'm just being nice to her. I don't need to tell her that I'm gonna go see her cousin and announce it's fine. She told me to be nice to her.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Just doing what she asked me to do.
Am I the asshole?
[00:17:27] Speaker A: It's no big deal. God, don't read into it.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Such a guy thing.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Yeah, right? He goes to her house and he waits and he looks around the room. And I'm not gonna describe what the room looks like because that's too much. She comes in after getting dropped off by Beaufort and she says that he was just showing her around to other houses, even though she loves this one. He tells her that it's not a fashionable street. And then she challenges him, saying it's more about the importance of friends and why do I care about that? Like, what does fashionable have to do with any of that? She challenges him about the importance of his cousins, the Van or Ludens, and is like the reason they're so important is because they stay away all the time. So that when they do go to society is a bigger deal than what it should be like. That's the reason. He's like, oh, shit. I didn't even realize that. That's so crazy. And it's just the first person who ever challenges your rev view in just like the smallest way where you're like, really? It just like changes everything. Even though it's like one degree off of what you normally looked at it. You're like, it's a whole new world.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: A whole new world.
[00:18:36] Speaker A: She asks what she should do about her family and her divorce. And he says that there are so many other people that she should go to for advice rather than him, that she should listen to her family. And she's like, well, they want me to like, sit down and shut up and not do anything. And I want to be free. You and Beaufort are one of the only people that make me feel normal. She then starts to cry and he freaks out a little bit. But then the duke and this Mrs. Thrers invites her to a music concert the next day at her house and also invites Archer, even though, like, she can't place him. It's like, I'm pretty sure I know you, but I don't know. And then Archer leaves immediately and goes to send May lilies of the Valley. But while he's there, he also decides that he's going to send Ellen some yellow roses because he's so down bad, he's just gonna fuck everything up for people. I don't know. I just felt like this is bad omens for everybody when he starts doing shit like this.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's all I've got about that. The next scene, he's walking with May and he mentions that he sent roses to Ellen. May finds it a little weird that she didn't mention that, but that's very nice of him. And then they talk about the wedding and Newland is put off by her lack of original ideas for it. And the next day, Janie tells him, Newland, that Mrs. Archer is upset because Madame Olenska has been seen at Mrs. Struther's with the Duke and Julius Beaufort. Henry Van Der Lieden gets there in the middle of their conversation and says that the Duke is getting Madame Olenska into trouble. He says he feels that is as if it's his responsibility to report on this because the Duke is a guest in his house.
[00:20:24] Speaker A: He went to go see Madame Malinska, who was Ellen. I very gently told her, like, hey, he's gonna get you in trouble with the people that he goes and takes you to. They're technically not of our class. You can't go over there. So he's just saying, like, it's his duty to protect her from all the lowly people of New York.
So she is so charming, she can get away with anything. Because they apparently were super mad. And then he just wouldn't talk to her. And he's like, no, I love her. I like her. She's gonna spend the weekend with us.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Oh, that's so cute.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: But I think that if something does bring her down, it'll be the women that bring her down.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: The women? Yeah.
[00:21:01] Speaker A: Like her cousins?
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I think very specifically, it's going to be May who tries to bring her down to her level.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: In chapter 11, we find out that Ellen really does want to sue for divorce. And the lawyer that is, quote, unquote, helping her, I guess, goes to see Archer to get his opinion because he's going to be, quote, unquote, connected to the family. Which barf. Archer asked why somebody else isn't doing this since there are men in her family already, men in May's family and men in Ellen's family that should be doing this instead. And Letter Blair is like, no, everyone says you should do it. We asked everybody, and they all said you. So I don't know. But I guess he also works as a lawyer, and so this isn't super out of the ordinary for them to come and be like, here, take a look at these papers. Because he does know what it would mean. But I did think that it was just a random lawyer to a random guy and being like, look at these papers.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: It definitely comes off that vibe.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: It comes off that vibe. And then two chapters later, he was like, well, I work with him. And I was like, oh, that makes more sense.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: That's what happened in the movie.
I was literally about to be like, in the movie, he's actually her lawyer. Her lawyer who works with. He works in the same firm, so they're. They work together.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: They're like.
[00:22:16] Speaker B: So it just made sense. But.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: Anyway, so he takes all the evidence that letter Blair gave him and he reads it all over for the next couple days. And it mostly consists of letters between Ellen's lawyer and the court that she's petitioning for her finances and to leave her husband and all this. And then there's also one letter from her husband. He thinks on his own failed love affair as he goes home after dropping off the letters back to Letter Blair. And then he goes to dine with Letter Blair that night. And this lawyer is also against her divorcing and says that this shouldn't be an issue. He's over there, she's over here. She should just let it go. It's not that big of a deal. And they actually came to him to try and talk her out of it, not to actually help with the divorce proceedings at all. And he says that he can't promise anything until he talks to Ellen himself. So he is learning just a little bit, I guess.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: I guess. He then walks to her house, and when he gets there, he finds Beaufort there. He's kind of upset about it, but the countess chooses him and keeps him there. So then he tells Madame Olenska that divorce is not socially acceptable and that the Count is going to ruin her. He then tells her that she has no reason to seek a divorce anyway, since she's already financially provided for and already free of her husband. Then she's like, this is how you feel? And he was like, yeah, this is how I feel. And so she's like, all right, I'll stop trying to get a divorce.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: The other factor in that is the social aspect of not only would it ruin her, it could potentially ruin her family.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: So she's gonna stop trying to get divorced, which I think is a bad call, and that he should have just went through and let her get the divorce. But whatever. As we can see at the end of this fucking half of what we're reading, Newlyn feels like things are a little bit off with Ellen since everything has happened and she decided not to get the divorce. He sees everyone in the box of the theater and he goes over there after they clock him. And she alludes to knowing that he sent her the yellow flowers. Because I guess after the last time he went to, he also sent more yellow flowers, even though they didn't have a note. She's like, I know it was you, my guy. And so he's like, oh, shit. I didn't think that she was going to bring it up, but she did. So then he's like, oh, we find out that May is out of town and he has been working. He's not supposed to have time off, even though it's the winter and there's not really anything happening. They were supposed to go out of town before their engagement was announced, but obviously, because Ellen was there, they brought up their engagement announcement. And so even though they're engaged now, he still isn't invited. Ellen says that she knows that he was right about putting off her divorce. And then he leaves. He recalls this as he's going home, that May asked him in her last letter to be nice to Ellen, since she doesn't think that Ellen likes it there, since there isn't as much as she used to do in the old place, and that he should pay more attention to her. And he's like, I got this note a couple days ago, and I was gonna not see Ellen, but that I just saw Ellen. And I kind of miss Ellen and May. Babe, you poor, naive child, please stop telling him to be nice to your cousin. Let them back off a little bit. Just a little bit.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: I don't even think. At the point that we stopped at in the book, did Mae realize that it was her cousin?
[00:25:30] Speaker A: No.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: That he's kind of into. Because she does at some point be like, look, I think you're kind of into somebody. There's somebody else. And he was like, no, no, there's nobody else. You're ridiculous.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: She named a specific person. He was like, it's not that person.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: In his head. He was like, yeah, I kind of do love her, but it's fine. I'll never Marry anybody else. We're all good.
As Newland leaves, he meets Ned Winsett, wins it, tells Newland that he should go into politics. And Newland is upset because he feels like getting married is going to ruin him ever having this kind of conversation again. Because no one's going to tell him how to, like, reinvent his life, basically, I guess. And then we skip three days later, and the Countess sends him a letter saying she wishes that he were there because she had to abruptly go on a trip. And so he plans a trip to be near her.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Technically, he had just refused a dinner invitation from the neighbor that she's going to be next to. And so then he just called back the neighbor and was like, just kidding. Can I come?
But then, yes, he was closer to the house because it was the neighbor's house. And so the next morning, he went over to the house and was like, hi, I was in the neighborhood.
Because he's feeling very restless with both of his women out of town. That's what I got out of that.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Both of his women out of town.
That's it. That's all I'm gonna say. I mean.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Is there anything else to say? Is there anything more to say other than that?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly.
That's all I'm saying.
[00:27:13] Speaker A: The Van der Luden house was built by the husband before he married his wife, Louisa. And Nuland is trying to weasel his way into a weekend with them. Like I said, he went to the neighbor's house and then was with them all morning and then decided to go over to their house and be like, hi, I was in the neighborhood. And because he's technically family, he can just come in. And so he does. He goes to call on them and sees Ellen. She's outside. He says that he wants to know what she was running from, because in her note, she says that she was running away from something, that she was going to the weekend with the Van der Ludens again. And he's like, well, what were you running from? She says, you'll see very soon. I'm so glad that you're here, though. You're protect me from whatever's coming.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: It's ominous.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah, right. But then she says, oh, maybe you're only here because of May and because she told you to be kind to me and take care of me and that she finds every place in England suffocating because there are just always people in rooms and you can never have any alone time with your thoughts, and there's constantly people around her, and she's just. It's like, there's too much. I just can't do it sometimes.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Overstimulated.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Yes, very overstimulated. True. So they go into the house alone together because Mrs. Van der Luden is at her cousin's house or something like that. She's gone, and Mr. Van de Luden is reading the paper. And so he will not come out under any means whatsoever. He will just read the paper. Please don't bother him. She's very happy that he's here. And she says that she could be happy with him around. He asks again, what's wrong? And then he sees Beaufort come up and assumes that Ellen is upset because Beaufort is here. But she says that she doesn't even know that he was coming. Beaufort then decides to ignore Archer because he's like, I don't actually want you here. And I guess that he's very good at ignoring him. Like, that's what it says is like, if he really puts his mind to it, the person that he ignores can feel completely invisible. And that's kind of how I felt. Poor guy. While they were talking and everything. He's just ruminating over in his mind. He's thinking that the reason that Ellen is probably drawn to Beaufort is because he's in both worlds. Because he can be with the artists and the lowlifes and all the things that he does with his CD crew. But then he also is accepted into normal systems society with everybody else. And so she can have the best of both worlds. And that's probably why she enjoys his company. Then he leaves because he's like, obviously, I don't need to be here. Then he gets a call from Ellen a couple days later saying that she just needs to explain. If he could just let her explain. If he could come to her house at this time. Instead, he decides that he's going to leave to St. Augustine. He's trying to outrun his problems right now. And I just don't think it'll work.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: Girl. You, me, both. So he goes and he sees May in St. Augustine. And immediately he knows that marrying her is the right thing. He tries to think of a scheme to marry her sooner. He's like, there's gotta be a reason.
And he really can't think of a good reason. And then he tries to get Mae to marry him sooner anyway. And she immediately clocks him. She's like, there's somebody else in your life, buddy. And he's like, oh, definitely not. And she's like, it's okay if there is. Right now. If you tell me right now. You can leave and I'll be fine. And he's like, no, there's no one else. There's no one else. You're ridiculous.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Well, she kind of says, I knew that you had been with somebody beforehand, so if you still, still are in love with this person, you need to tell me now because I don't want you to marry me if you would rather be with her. So if you would rather be with her, then let me know. And he's like, no, no, no. I would rather be with you. You're the one who I'm going to marry. That's exactly what he says.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: You're the only one I'm gonna marry. Okay?
[00:31:08] Speaker A: I mean, he didn't say, technically, I'm not in love with somebody else. He said, I'm not in love with her, and you're the person I'm going to marry.
And this is just what a manipulator does.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Women. That's a red flag.
Clock it.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Clock it. Ellen comes to see her mother while he is gone in St. Augustine. He finds out when he gets back that Ellen came and went and saw his family. Archer goes and sees Mrs. Mingott with news from her family because that's who he was visiting. And he tells her about wanting to move up the wedding and how he would prefer it, but everybody's against it. Doesn't even seem like he can get Mae to change her mind. And she makes an offhand comment on how he should marry Ellen instead. And he's like, oh, well, can't do that. She's already married. She's like, oh, true.
That's when Ellen comes in, and she also mentions this to Ellen, like, I just told him that he should marry you instead. And she's like, oh, what did he say? Oh, you'll have to find that out for yourself, little lady. Ha ha ha ha. As he's leaving, he tells her that he would like to call on her, and she says that he has to do it soon because she's going to be moving in a week. So they decide that he's going to call on her tomorrow early. Except that he goes late because she asked him to come early because she was going to go out that night. And he's like, no, I'm gonna go late so that she either one, doesn't go out in the town because I'm so late and she has to see me, or two, I miss her after she already left. And that's probably better because I probably shouldn' because of my feelings right now.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Men.
[00:32:46] Speaker A: When he goes inside, he realizes that other people are there, which he finds kind of weird. It's a woman wins it and then another man who are all looking at flowers. The woman is the Martianess Mason. She says that she is the Countess's aunt. And the man in there that we don't know is Dr. Carver. They came to dine with her, but she's changing upstairs and they're small, talking. The men end up leaving and Mrs. Mason says that she's happy to see Archer there and for talking Helen out of her divorce. Because guess what she has. She actually has a letter from her ex husband telling the aunt that he wants Ellen back. Which I didn't realize we were going to get a bomb like this at this point.
[00:33:34] Speaker B: I didn't know that.
It wasn't in the movie.
I missed over that in the book. It wasn't in the movie. I only watched half the movie. Okay. I didn't spoil it for myself.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: But that was not in the movie.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Okay. Well, she has a letter from her, the ex husband saying that he. He wants Ellen back. And the aunt is saying like she should take him back. These are the things that would be easier. Helen doesn't even like this place. All of the things that are here she doesn't like. And all the things that she likes are back home. So she should just go back home. Especially if her husband is willing to take her back at any means necessary. It basically said that whatever Ellen's conditions are, he'll take her back at those conditions. So he's like very willing to get her back at this point. And Mrs. Mason wants Archer to convince Ellen to go back to her husband. And this is when I said fuck all of these people. They want her to go back to her cheating, possibly abusive husband. I just don't understand it. I know this is the 1870s, but I hate these people.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: I was about to say, but that's what's socially acceptable at the time. Oh, well, spoiler alert.
I don't have a spoiler alert because I don't know what happens. I didn't even know that happened.
Madame Olenska and Newland are left alone. He tells her that her aunt thinks she should go back to the Count because of the letter. She changes the topic and she asks about his wedding. He tells her that May is under the impression that there's someone else he loves more than her. Olenska then asks if he does and he doesn't really answer. He kind of like avoids it. And then the carriage comes and he tells her, actually there is another woman. She's mad because immediately she knows it's her. She's upset because he's actually the reason she didn't get a divorce because he told her not to. And it was of his opinion when it literally would have made it possible for him to be with her because he's saying that he can't be with the other woman. Newlyn then tells her that he loves her, and she cries. And he's like, it's not too late. You can still get a divorce. And she's like, no. And then he's like, well, you're just gonna get back with Buford anyway. And then a maid comes in with a message that says, may actually got the wedding moved up. It'll be just after Easter, which is like a year and a half.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: So let's say October, a year from now. And now it's getting moved up. Yeah, a year and a half.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: That's crazy. And so she says it's getting moved up. And he goes home, and Janie is awake waiting for him to read a telegram that had come while he was away. And he realizes now that he's scheduled to be married in a month. Yeah, that's his big revelation. Then the chapter's over.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Isn't it ironic? Don't you think? He literally just went over there and was like, please, can you please move this up? And she's like, we'll see. And then he goes and is like, okay, I love you. She just told me that we can't move the engagement up, which is enough cause for a broken engagement for none of them to be, like, super.
You know how, like, the olden days, it was very hard for two people to break an engagement without wanting them getting spurned or, like, looked down on in society.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Because there has to be a reason that the engagement was broken off. And it's always the woman's fault.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Not always. Unless they do a specific reason why it was broken. Because, like, the woman can do the engagement. Like, if she finds out that her person is cheating on her, she finds out bad things about him, or, like, he's in debt. Like, their family can cut off the connection, too. So it doesn't necessarily always be the woman, but they do need a specific reason to cut off a connection. So he's saying to Ellen, because she just said, we can't move up this wedding, I now have cause to end our engagement without anybody being the wiser and it being fine.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: That makes sense.
[00:37:41] Speaker A: So now we just need to get you divorced. And she's like, dude, you should have done this a long time ago. Now we are already two in the thick of it. You did already tell her that there was nobody else. You already told her all these things. We're too far gone. And then that's when he's like, well, you're just gonna go with this other guy. And, yeah, so it devolves from there. Maybe I should say my thoughts first, because I know that you're going to go on a bit of a rant tangent thing for my predictions for the rest of this book. I do assume that he's either going to end up alone or end up with Ellen. Although I'm rooting for alone a little bit. This is made in the 1920s, although I find that this language to me is very modern and that it was very easy for me to grasp. I'm not entirely sure if in the 1920s, if they had happy endings or if they made sure that things were, like, really okay at the end or if things were more bleak. Because I feel like things could have been more bleak back then. And it could end with him losing both women and having to figure out his life more. Although I fear men always come out on top, especially in times like these. So we'll see.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: Ain't that the truth?
[00:38:42] Speaker A: But let me know everything that you thought.
[00:38:44] Speaker B: I wonder if yours is, like, modernized slightly more than mine. If it's not the original print, like, it's translation because they wanted to update it more.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Doubt it. Like I said, there was things in it that I didn't understand. They made references to plays, they made references to political things that I didn't necessarily understand because it was of the age. There's specific authors that they made references to or books that they made references to that I understood because, like, I know those books and they're still classics today. But there was things that I didn't necessarily understand from, like, time frame wise, which I just kind of moved past, because it doesn't necessarily have to do with, like, the emotional story of anything. So I just was like, oh, he's at an opera. Maybe if I knew what the opera was, I could find more understanding and parallel between my story and his story. But I don't think that I necessarily need to in order to grasp the story itself. Do you know what I mean?
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah. I definitely felt like I needed a lot of this context, though. Let me start now that we're recording, because I went on a tangent while we weren't. My opinions on this book are not amazing.
I'VE never hated reading a book more in my entire life. Even in high school, there's no way.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: In middle school, there's no way.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: I liked those books better. I liked those books better.
I was reading this first chapter and wanted to cry. And I'll bring it up right now. What? I texted my husband because I was so literally still in this first chapter. I said, bro, I'm so effing angry right now. I'm gonna effing cry. And I'm getting effing irritated because. And then I, like, ranted a little bit about the situation that was happening with my dogs, and then the cat had just threw up on our carpet, and by the way, it was. It stained.
And then I went to read.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: You're not in the right headspace at all.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: No, I'm trying to read this book, and I don't understand a single effing word. I don't understand how I'm supposed to summarize this thing when I can't understand what's even happening because this author is using big words, and I don't understand effing anything that's happening, and I have to read the whole effing thing just for an effing podcast that no one's gonna effing listen to. And I'm just so effing pissed off.
That's how much I hated this book.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: No.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: And I'm like, I'm gonna throw it against a wall. And then he said, throw it. It might help. And I said, I can't damage a book. It would hurt my soul.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Literally crying right now.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: I'm so sorry. I did not realize that this was gonna be so hard for you. And I do remember telling you, like, oh, yeah, it's pretty easy to read. Like, I'm in chapter six. It's fine.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: I don't know what it was. Not the right headspace, I guess, but I literally hated this book so much.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: All right, but tell me your reasons.
[00:41:52] Speaker B: Okay, Reasons.
She was using such big language for me and too many references that were too timely that I just didn't understand them. I got to chapter three, and I was, like, still super frustrated. So I started just highlighting everything that I didn't understand and didn't know. And then I got to chapter four, and I started highlighting entire phrases and sentences that I just was not understanding. And she went off on these, like, side tangents about, like, people in society. And yes, it. It matters because it explains the, like, social situation and how they have to act and how other people's Opinions matter and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Some of them I could not get through through the side tangent because my head was trying to put that puzzle together while the actual plot was developing in the background. And I'm like trying to still understand why this one family who has like ten sisters matters and like how it affects society. And I'm like so confused. On top of that, I don't understand what's just the random deep dive into their family history. Like this random side character that she just brought up because she's going into their whole family history and like cousins of cousins. And I just couldn't decipher what was that and what was actual plot that I needed to pay attention to in the beginning of this book. And that's where all my frustrations come from. Because the very beginning of it, it was just grinding my gears and I wasn't understanding anything that I got so frustrated. And then the rest of the book didn't make any sense to me. And none of the characters had any. Like, they just weren't having any emotions to me. And any word she used to describe emotion was usually a super big word that I just didn't understand again. And so I'm like, I don't care how they feel anymore. They could all die and I'd be perfectly fine. Like, kill off me. Who do I care?
I don't care about these characters. And it was just making me mad.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: I will say it wasn't until probably about chapter eight that things started to actually come together for the plot. For me.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: There's too much happening beforehand.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: It took a while. I was like, I don't entirely understand what this relationship is. I don't entirely understand. I knew that they were cousins and like she had been there before and then she got transplanted somewhere else. But their relationship itself, I wasn't entirely sure, but it is unclear.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And the only thing that made it seem like he was even falling for Ellen so far was literally how he got turned on because he touched her. Oh.
[00:44:27] Speaker A: I was just like, he thinks about her all the time. He literally is thinking about her all the time. He's obsessed with her. He literally just non stop, they're talking about her, they're thinking about her. They're just constantly. I'm like, dude, like, you never think about me this much. You obviously don't care.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: But we also don't know that he doesn't think about Mei this much. Like, I guess what I'm saying is, like, he could love Mei and have been thinking about her literally. This much. And then her cousin was introduced and he's just like, what the fuck is up with this? And that's how it was portrayed in my head. He's just like, this is a weird situation that's happening. This is kind of taking all of my thoughts because it's weird that it's happening right as I get engaged and now I'm getting into this. And so it's like, concerning him, not him falling in love with this lady.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: For me, the way that I read him was that he was cautious, but because he knew it was dangerous to know her. Like, he knew from the very get looking at her how striking she was. The first looking at her turned him on so much that he's like, fuck, that's not a great person to be around. So then he is talking to her family and talking to this. And like, like she said, she's like, I found out that you and your family actually went to the Van der Ludens and made sure that I was accepted in this town and in this society. Nobody else did that for me. It was you and your family that did that to me. And I know for sure it was actually you that did that for me. Like, you did specific things in order to make me feel welcome. And that's the only reason why I feel welcome in this town is because I feel welcome with you. And so the way that his actions were, even though he was very standoffish and he didn't exactly, like, do anything and didn't show emotions like the way that he presented himself, he was like, I do feel like you should have choices. I do feel like you should have a house that you can be comfortable in. I do feel like you should be safe in this society. You didn't actually do anything wrong. And then he spends more time with her, and she's unlike anybody that he's ever met before. And he's like, fudge, I love this girl. This is crazy.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: See, I understood most of that, but like, him being like, you didn't do anything wrong. So he's like, trying to help her because she literally didn't do anything wrong. And he's like, morally pushed forward rather than romantically pushed forward. Does that make sense?
[00:46:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Like, I'm not getting the romance at all in this book. It just isn't getting conveyed to me. He got turned on when she touched his leg. And then at the end he's like, I love you. And I'm like, where did that come from?
[00:46:47] Speaker A: That's so funny, because literally I Didn't put it because running out of time. And I was literally reading this when we were about to record this. So I didn't write it, but in my head, going out of chapter 17 into chapter 18, I was like, I feel like he's gonna kiss her soon. And then they kiss. That chapter in 18, they kissed. When he did his love announcement, like, there. There was something about it that I was like, there's the vibes. The vibes are coming. He's like. He's already had these weird vibes with May, and he's about to go see her. Something's gonna happen.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I wasn't getting those vibes.
[00:47:19] Speaker A: But read me a sentence that you didn't understand. I want to hear one.
[00:47:22] Speaker B: Hold on. Let me. Got a sentence. I have one. That was just ridiculous. Okay, I understood what I meant, but it was ridiculous.
A flight of smooth double chins led down to the dizzy depths of a still snowy bosom, veiled in snowy muslins that were held in place by a miniature portrait of the late Mr. Mingott.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: That's so funny.
[00:47:51] Speaker B: What?
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Her double chins that go down to her huge boobs that are.
Have a bunch of, like, fucking stuff on them. Then in the middle, there's a huge fucking brooch with her husband on it. That's hilarious.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: See, I didn't pick that. I was like, what is this sentence? I didn't. I didn't get that one.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: You're like, I understood it, but this is ridiculous. And then you're like, I didn't get that at all. What did you think it meant? Did it?
[00:48:17] Speaker B: Then there's. There's this point where she goes. Rolls of aged fat encircling the wrist like ivory bracelets, like, ma'am, ma'am.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: They did say that. Ms. Mingott. But literally in the first chapter, they're like, the reason she doesn't come to this box is because she's too fat. And so when you meet Ms. Mingott, they're like, look, she's very fat.
But that's very funny.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I have more highlights, but I'm just gonna leave it at that, because that's all we needed.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: That's all we needed.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: That's all I needed to show you. To show you that I did not understand this effing book. And there were weird sentences, and that's how, like, she wrote the whole time.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: She would use so many big words just to say one thing. I don't try to hate on authors, but Jesus Christ, I couldn't really make it through this book, it was just too much for me.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: Well, hopefully you can make it through the second half. But what is your actual prediction for the second half? I don't know if you said that.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Oh, I didn't.
My prediction is that he's gonna dump Mei and go for Olenska, and they're gonna live their little happy lives, and Olenska's gonna get her divorce.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: But there's nothing else for me to theorize about because it's like, either that happens or he doesn't marry either of them because he's not marrying May.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: You don't think so?
[00:49:39] Speaker B: I don't think so. He used to love her. He definitely used to love her. Like, he's super nice to her, but they're not getting married.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: You don't think that if she sticks up for herself enough that he'll come around? Because this is the one thing he's like, oh, she kind of doesn't have a backbone. She lets other people think for her. I want her to be smarter. You don't think that maybe if she does something that he could be like, you know what? Actually.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Actually, I don't. I don't think he.
I don't think he's going to. No. No, he's not marrying me. That much is obvious to me. And if I eat my words, I eat my words, but it's not happening.
[00:50:17] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:18] Speaker B: I hope you know something about this.
[00:50:20] Speaker A: Book and the ending, but I know literally nothing.
You're the one who watched half the movie.
[00:50:27] Speaker B: You watched half.
I paused it the second the scene was over because it's obviously a big scene. Chapter 18, which is where we stopped immediately. I was like, pause and good night.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Good call.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: And I had to buy this movie, by the way, because when you rent only is available for 48 hours. And I knew I wouldn't be able to watch the second half of the movie until more than 48 hours later. So either I had to rent it twice or buy the movie. So I ended up spending the three extra bucks to buy the effing movie. So. So this.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: You hated this book. Why would you buy the movie? Just rent the first half and then don't care about the second half.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: This book is the vein of my life.
[00:51:12] Speaker A: You didn't have to finish the movie if you didn't like the book or the movie. You said the movie was boring, too.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: The movie sucks. I'm so sorry. To Michelle Pfeiffer.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: Michelle Pfeiffer.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: And, oh, my God, there's two huge actresses. Anyway, I'm sorry to both that Winolo Ryder. Winoma Ryder.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Wow, really?
[00:51:31] Speaker B: They're both in it. Yes. Anyway, we'll see you next week. We're about to say goodbye.
