The Age of Innocence (Pt. 2)

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to BMC Book Club. I'm Kristen. [00:00:04] Speaker B: And I'm Summer. This is the podcast where we bring you all the comforting gossip of a regular book club. Just between you, me, and her, you. [00:00:11] Speaker A: May be wondering what the B and the C stand for this week. The B stands for Beaufort, which I feel it was very timely. [00:00:17] Speaker B: The C stands for chalk. [00:00:20] Speaker A: Summer, how have you been lately? [00:00:21] Speaker B: I'm a little exhausted. And that's. That's all I've got for you. How are you? [00:00:26] Speaker A: I'm fine. I sometimes give plasma, and I gave plasma today, so I'm a little tired, but other than that, I'm good. But we are going over the second half of Age of Innocence today by Edith Wharton. It was published in October of 1920. Did you like this half any better than you liked the first half? [00:00:46] Speaker B: No. [00:00:47] Speaker A: No. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Especially the ending. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Okay, well, there's just a couple things that I want to go over really quick about Edith, because I didn't have her full history when we had the last podcast, so she did actually publish books while she was married. It was just usually books about garden or interior design and travel. It wasn't actually fiction novels. And so she did technically write 40 books in 40 years, even though she wasn't publishing all of them. She did write that many, and actually, I think most of them were published. She was also the first woman to be awarded the Pulitzer Prize, which is cool. And she won the Pulitzer Prize for this novel, Age of Innocence, two years after this came out. [00:01:32] Speaker B: I actually knew that, which is why last episode, I was like, I can't shit on this author or this story because it literally won a Pulitzer Prize. So it's rough. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And then the short story that I have of hers, Ethan Frome, is the short story that she published while she was still married, like, a year or two before she got divorced. So she did do all that. But she also received an honorary doctorate from Yale, so she was, like, very prolific in her time, which is crazy, especially because I really don't know that much about her. Yeah, I heard her name, but it's weird because I didn't know any of this information. And then the only reason I knew that she won a Pulitzer Prize for this is because it was on the back of my book. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Is that what made you, like, look up more information about her? [00:02:18] Speaker A: Well, no, I just normally look up information about the people that were covering just to figure out if there's any context that actually happens to what they're writing about. And this one, I do feel like was a Little bit more context that I needed, but for the Gilded Age, not for the age that she was actually in, because she was right. A history novel. [00:02:34] Speaker B: All right, well, you want to hop into it? We left off with them kissing and her being like, you need to go back to May, because I can't be the person that takes away her happiness. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And then they got a note from everybody else saying, oh, actually, the wedding can happen in a month. It's fine. [00:02:53] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Honestly, I thought personally that something was going to happen to break them up before the wedding happened, but that's not what happened. Because in chapter 19, when we start off, we just jumped to wedding day. [00:03:04] Speaker B: Yeah. We were both like, they're not gonna end up together. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:10] Speaker B: And then the next chapter, they're like, oh, guys, they're together. [00:03:14] Speaker A: They're 100% together. It's the wedding day. It's pretty easy to go through this process, but it's also been a little bit painful. And Archer is just standing in the front of the room just looking at everybody as he's waiting for it to start. He's thinking about these people and how they're probably judging everything and how everything in the wedding looks and how the people look around them and who's sitting next to who and who got invited and who didn't. And he thinks it's a little bit shallow, but then he also remembers that he used to do this all the time and sit and think about what everybody else was thinking about. And again, he finds it shallow. And then I did the quote of. And all the while, I suppose real people were living somewhere and real things were happening to them. And I just laugh because he thinks that because he is in love with his fiance's cousin that he all of a sudden has real problems, and real people are, like, taking real things seriously. This is somehow, like, an elevated problem to, like, everybody else. And I'm like, dude, there's people, literally in this novel who have it much worse than you. But you're like, everybody else just doesn't know about my real problems. And I don't know if it was supposed to be a joke, but I laughed. Now everybody is coming in. The bride's family walks in, and old Mrs. Minga wanted to come, but she's too fat, so her chair couldn't fit through the door. And they went through about 15 possibilities of her trying to get to this wedding, but, alas, she is too fat. And so she could not come. And her family was grateful because where she was going to be sitting was just going to reveal her huge body in front of the whole entire town. And they were repulsed by that. And so they're like, no, it's better that you just don't come. And they were relieved when somebody figured out that the uprights to the doorway couldn't fit her chair. But even if they were to remove those. And that means that somebody could possibly be taking pictures of May in her wedding dress for the newspapers and gas. Nobody can do that. So that was the one thing that actually led to the old lady not being able to come to the wedding. And it was just. The whole thing was humorous to me. I thought. I thought it was all very funny. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Question. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Does she just sleep in her chair? Does she go to the bathroom in her chair? Like, I need the logistics of this. She can't go literally anywhere because she's too fat. What's happening? [00:05:31] Speaker A: I don't even know. I can't even logistically think about that in my head. [00:05:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. [00:05:38] Speaker A: So instead of her going to the wedding, they decided that they're going to have their wedding breakfast at her house. And so everything was settled. Then the Marchioness Manson is here, even though it was told to everybody that her and Ellen were going to be gone all month and they weren't going to be able to make the wedding. But all of a sudden, she's here. So he's a little bit freaking out that Ellen also might be here. Then May comes down the aisle and they get married. And it's very quick. It flashes through. And this is kind of to show that he's not all the way there. He's just going through the motions. And he's kind of looking around. He's like, oh, shit, I'm getting married. And disassociating a little bit, but it's there and doing what he needs to be doing. So then finally they leave and he comes to and they're alone together. And he just says that he's been nervous all day and worried about everything, and it's just been rattling around in his brain. And May says, well, now that they're together, everything is just going to be a. Okay. And whatever happens, happens. And they're just so lucky whenever they're together. But Archer thinks that she's naive and that she will never truly pay attention enough to get upset until things are presented at her. And then, even then, whenever it's fixed, she'll automatically resume her happy existence. Then they go to the country house in New York. I believe where they're told there's a leak, but then they have to go to this patroon's house, which is an extra side house, which I guess is even fancier than their actual house that they're going to stay at. But Ellen was saying that is the best house that she's ever seen in America and that's the only place that she could be happy. Mae always thinks that they always just get so lucky together. They get to be in this better house than they were even at before. And it's just because of leak. Like, wow, they're so fortuitous for them to get married and have all these lucky things happen. My thought for this was, I really hope the rest of this book is not him appreciating. Maybe I might be upset because she just deserves somebody better than him. And then I was like, but if the rest of this book is him cheating on her with her cousin, I'm going to be very mad. That'll upset me. I don't know how I necessarily feel about what the ending actually was. It's not those things. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's not those. [00:07:43] Speaker A: And damn, I didn't think we were going to go there, but we did. [00:07:47] Speaker B: They then go to Europe for their honeymoon. Mae is concerned and kind of unwanting to visit all of Archer's foreign friends. And Archer's just thinking about how naive she is and how he's irritated by her reluctance to want to travel and actually see people while they travel. Then he just kind of accepts that his married life is always going to be lived like this and he settles into that acceptance and he's just gonna have a active social life outside of his marriage because she's so unwilling to be such a participator. He does, however, convince her to go to an old family friend's house in London just before the end of their honeymoon. And there they meet a Frenchman who is a tutor. And he says he's more willing to be intellectual and broke than small minded and rich. That's a simplized version. And Archer is like, wow, this guy is crazy. I like him. And he's intrigued by the idea. And he's like, I want to invite him to dinner. And May is like, lol. No. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm like, wow. They've been together for like two weeks and it's trouble in paradise. Already rough. Back at home for the August meeting of the archery club that the Beaufort usually host. And now that Archer is here, he realizes how much that he's changed. And he didn't really notice the past couple of weeks that he's been back home because he's been so busy getting the house ready and everything. Everything. He wanted to go to Wade to a cottage for this vacation, but because May's family always goes to this specific place, Newport, and he can't think of a good reason for them not to go, so they have to go. Even though he doesn't really want to be there, he knows that he won't be happy there. And it's not Mae's fault, because she's perfect and she tries, and everything about her is just so lively and new and naive and wonderful. But he's like, I'm just not entirely satisfied. He even thinks, oh, maybe my thing with Ellen wasn't even that big of a deal. It was just folly right before I'm getting married, and now I'm just settling into married life. It'll be fine. But then that day, he sees the Martianess and learns that Ellen isn't staying in Newport and just hearing her name in, like, an actual conversation because she's been brought up every once in a while, but it's never been in, like, a full conversation with anybody that's asking his opinion. And so he's actually paying attention to her name. He's like, book, I'm still in trouble. So then he watches Mae win the archery competition, and she suggests they go to the old Mrs. Meangots to let her know about the win that she just had. And she asked Newlin to go with her. But as soon as they're there, Mrs. Mingott says, oh, Ellen is here to visit me. You didn't know? Okay, Newlyn, go downstairs and go and get her. So he has to go and get her. And he sees her on the end of a pier, and he thinks to himself, okay, he. She has to sense me, right? And so if she turns around by the time that this boat goes to this lighthouse, then I will go and approach her and tell her, hello. And like all of these things, because the last time that I saw her was when I was confessing my love to her. But if she doesn't turn around, then I'm going to walk away and then just say that I didn't find her. She doesn't turn around. And so he walks away and says that he didn't find her. May says, oh, I would have liked to see her. Even though it seems like she's changed. She doesn't really talk much. Seems like she finds us boring. And anytime that we talk, it seems like she's more indifferent to us now. And then they go to bed, and this is when they have a conversation about whether or not Ellen should go back to her husband or not. And Mae is like, yeah, she should. And Archer, once again, is like, no, she shouldn't. And they just are opposed in every way about what she should be doing in that situation. [00:11:29] Speaker B: Time passes, and Archer is finding life in Newport to be pretty boring. He doesn't really want to be participatory in anything really, either. So one of his ways to avoid a social obligation is saying that he is gonna go to the country to find a new horse for his carriage. He goes, he fails. And he's, of course, curious to see where Ellen has been living, so he goes to visit. When he gets there, no one is there. But when he arrived, he found a pink parasol. He kind of, like, picks it up and is starting to think about Ellen, and he assumes that it must be hers. And then he goes to kiss it, and a girl interrupts him, which is, honestly, dude, embarrassing. [00:12:13] Speaker A: So embarrassing. [00:12:16] Speaker B: You're kind of pathetic. Kissing her shoes when she's not there or something like that. Like, that's how that feels. [00:12:23] Speaker A: No, it was so awkward when she showed up, and I was like, oh, that's not who anyone was expecting. [00:12:30] Speaker B: He asked where Ellen is, and she tells him that she's in Boston. And then he tells her, hey, you know what? I'm gonna be in Boston tomorrow. Could. Could I know where she's staying so I could go see her? And the girl just tells him, and he's like, okay, cool. Bye. [00:12:46] Speaker A: I cannot believe that he's gonna go find her in Boston. Like, what the is he doing? [00:12:51] Speaker B: Just leave her alone. He's just so madly in love with her. He's cheating on his wife by being so madly in love with someone else. Yeah, come on, dude. Come on. [00:13:05] Speaker A: He tells May that he's going to Boston on business, and he goes to call on her at the hotel that she's staying at, but they say that she's out, so he leaves pretty disappointed and is like, oh, damn, I didn't even think about not finding her. What am I gonna do? But then he goes outside and finds her across the street, so it's fine. She sees him and is surprised to see him, but makes room for him on the bench. She says that she's alone. She doesn't even have her maid with her. And she's also here for business because he's like, oh. Oh, weird that I just saw you here. You're here. For business. But then immediately is like, oh, back at Parker House where you're staying in the bro, you immediately gave that up. Whatever. So she says that she's also here for business because she went to go talk to somebody. She turned down money from her ex husband. And apparently it's not him that's here. He sent emissary with a message for her and he didn't even come himself. He doesn't even write. Literally, he has somebody deliver a message verbally to her and get a message back. And then he's like, okay, well that's great. Then you can come out and go on the bay with me. We can go on a boat. And she's like, I really don't think that's a good idea. And he's like, please come out on the bay with me. And she's like, well, like you, you didn't even see me when I was at old Mrs. Mingott's house. And he was like, well, the only reason I didn't do that was because you didn't turn around. He was like, I feel stupid admitting that, but that's why. And then she's like, well, I didn't turn around because I did know you were there and I was waiting for you to come get me. And so then they're like, okay, I'll go with you, but I need to write a note to the guy to say 100% that I'm turning down this offer. Then they go back to the hotel and she goes inside, but as she's inside, he sees somebody that might be familiar, but he can't figure out who it is. Then they leave. And while they're on this boat, Archer feels like he's escaping reality. And it feels like they should just be together forever for a long time. And he just feels so good on the boat with them. There's a few school teachers on holiday, and so they go onto a private veranda so they can talk. And I definitely thought they were going to do more than talk. [00:15:03] Speaker B: Hey, guess what? They talked. [00:15:05] Speaker A: They just talked. [00:15:06] Speaker B: This time when they're at lunch is when Ellen tells Archer that she grew tired of New York society and she wanted a more variety of people. Basically, she wanted people just less judgy. Archer asks why she didn't go back to Europe, and she tells him that it's because of him. Then they change the subject and talk about Archer and how he's married. Ellen makes a comment about how at least May is happy. Archer then sells that Ellen is the one who gave him his first taste of real life at the same time that she asked him to continue his sham life with May. Bro, why are you bringing that up? Like, why? Ellen also admits that she is unhappy without him in her life. Archer feels like they're never gonna see each other again. But Ellen promises to not return to her husband or go to Europe as long as she and Archer don't act on their feelings for each other. [00:16:05] Speaker A: And I'm sorry to tell you, but I cried. [00:16:07] Speaker B: What? [00:16:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:09] Speaker B: You cried? [00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it got me. [00:16:12] Speaker B: What got you? [00:16:14] Speaker A: What are you talking about? [00:16:18] Speaker B: What about this got you? [00:16:20] Speaker A: You don't like the story at all, But I'm into it. I have been tracking with this story all along. I think it's funny. I think it's humorous. I think it has a lot of heart in it. And it's kind of fucking crazy the way that this is laid out. And she's a beautiful writer. I actually really do enjoy this writing style. And it got me the longing and the. I can't be far away from you, but I also can't be near you. And for you to tell me to act on our feelings would almost make me hate you, because it would make me betray who I love, which is my family. But I also can't not go to you if you do ask me. So, like, please don't ask me to come to you. I just need to be close enough to you that I know that you're okay, but far enough away that not doing anything. Please let that be that. And it got me. [00:17:05] Speaker B: Wow. I guess the way you said it, it sounds a lot more relatable. Just in this book. It feels like, hey, I love this lady. And it's like, then just fucking be with the lady. Like, gotta make it this whole thing. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:20] Speaker B: You love her. Okay. She wants a divorce from her husband. She's not living with him. No one's getting hurt. Except. Well, I mean, May is getting. But just her feelings. Like, just. You never had to marry this to begin with. [00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:40] Speaker B: You don't even like her that much. [00:17:43] Speaker A: It's true. I mean, he didn't realize that until after he already was engaged, but. Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, but engaged, like, you can still not marry her. [00:17:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit harder back in these days, but yes. Which is even what they bring up in the last chapter. So chapter 25, after he gets out of this meeting, he's very content kind of with how it went. And, like, he feels like maybe that was probably for the best. And, like, her choice would be to stay near him as long as he did not ask her to come nearer. And it depended on himself to keep her just there, safe, but secluded. And I thought that was the perfect way to sum up what just happened. Then he sees the same person from the hotel on the train, and we find out that it's Monsieur Riveri. Riveri. I'm gonna say it like that. And it's a butcher of how you say something French, but there you go. This is the French tutor that came to New York. And he came to New York after a while when he was with him, he was like, oh, I kind of want to go to New York. And he's like, wow, you actually came to New York. That's awesome. And so Archer invites him to lunch and once they're at his office and they go to lunch and everything, we're very lets him know that he's actually the emissary that went to go talk to Ellen from his ex husband. And he wants to talk to Archer about Ellen now. He tells him all about the negotiations that have been happening behind the scenes with the family. And he's been talking to Lowell Mingott as a representative of one of the Mingots, which is May's brother. They're trying to get Ellen to still go back to her husband. And Archer realizes that he's been left out of this conversation and all of the, like, behind the scenes stuff, even though he was the lawyer that was taking care of it before because May told her family that he was not for Ellen to go back to her husband. So he realized that she told them on the DL, like, hey, he keeps telling me, like, he doesn't want her to go back to her husband. So maybe we should just not cut him into the negotiations anymore, which is like savage girl. Like, okay. Archer asked why Reverie is telling him this, and Riveri begs Archer to make sure that Ellen does not go back to her ex husband. Because he's like, look, I took this mission because I knew them before and I thought that it was best for everybody for her to come back to her husband. But then I saw her and I had a couple conversations with her and I realized that she's much happier away from him and that she should not come back at all. I just don't think it's best for her, that's all. And he also says that once he goes back and talks to the ex husband after telling him everything that Ellen said and rejects the offer, basically then he's going to also say that he's quitting. So I Guess that means that the ex husband really is that bad. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Riviere. That's how you say it, by the way. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Okay, you gotta sound French. You gotta. You gotta throw your French. [00:20:25] Speaker A: I'm never good at that. [00:20:27] Speaker B: Rivier. I'm not making fun of French people, I promise. [00:20:35] Speaker A: Oh, no, I am. I'm not even trying to say the word. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Now it's fall. Archer's mom is complaining about society in general. Beaufort is rumored to have financial problems due to illegal dealings. And Mrs. Struthers is having vulgar Sunday parties. Ellen was one of the first to attend the Struthers parties. And so she's being talked down about. And it's also revealed that she's still disappointing her family by not going back to her husband. Archer reveals that he hasn't heard from her for many, many months. And then it's suggested among the table that Ellen will be poorer if Beaufort loses his money because she was kind of like his mistress. And it's revealed that Ellen's family has also significantly reduced her allowance because of her refusal to go back to her husband. Archer then goes home and comes up with an excuse to go to Washington to go see Ellen. And Mae is like, okay, because he says that he's going to Washington for a case. What was it called? [00:21:40] Speaker A: He's going for the Supreme Court case. [00:21:41] Speaker B: He says, yeah, something like that. And it was for licenses or copyright. I don't remember. Something like that. And May is like, okay, that's fine. Oh, just so you know, you should go see Ellen while you're there. You'd be making her so happy. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:22:01] Speaker A: And this is when I ask, is she more aware of what's happening than he thinks that she is? How much does she actually know? [00:22:08] Speaker B: I definitely think she's been aware about it since the very beginning. It's just never been pointed out. And we're getting his perspective of everything. He thinks he's being so sly. And he's like, oh, I'm in love with her. But no one can tell me going to see her all the time. Nobody's noticed. They just think I'm a really good husband to me for going to help her cousin. Like he just. Unreliable narrator. [00:22:35] Speaker A: That's for sure. That's for sure. [00:22:37] Speaker B: She 100% has known this entire time. There's no doubt in my mind. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Okay. I don't know if it's been the entire time, but, yes, I do think it's been pretty early. [00:22:49] Speaker B: The second he willingly went and saw her, she was like, all right, he likes her. And then, like, it happens again. And she's like, okay, she likes him. And it happens for the 50th time. And she's like, okay, they're fucking together. They're. Fuck it. [00:23:06] Speaker A: Yes. In chapter 27, it says that Ellen is Beaufort's presumed mistress. That's what everyone thinks. They think that Beaufort is giving her money to live on. Because people are reducing her salary. So they're like, well, how else is she living? Everyone is worried about that. And so it says that Beaufort, the next day, is doing pretty well on stocks and everything that happened in the beginning of the morning. And Archer is making his way to leave for Washington. As soon as he's about to go, then his boss comes to him and is like, oh, actually, Befort didn't do that well. And he wasn't able to make up the money that he was supposed to. So now there's a run on the bank. And so now there's an actual financial crisis that's happening on all the Fifth Avenue. And it's all because of this one guy. And it goes down in history of this being a bad deal because of this one guy. So there's been a little bit of an issue. Then he gets a note from May asking him to come see her. Since old Mrs. Mingott isn't doing well. Since she somehow heard about everything that happened with the banks and everything before it was even out. So she had a stroke. He goes, she had a mild stroke. And then Mrs. Beaufort comes, who is a part of the family. She's connected by their cousin in some way. And she comes and asks Mrs. Mingot, can you guys protect my husband from the fallout of this thing? Also, can we, like, sweep this under the rug? You have so much power. Can we maybe, like, make sure that this goes away? And Mrs. Mingot is like, no, no, no. In this house, we tell the truth. So Mrs. Buford is like, okay, then can I get divorced? And Mrs. Minga is like, no, no, no. She says something to the effect of, you get to keep his name in the gold, but you also get to keep his name in the filth after that. Then they learn that old Mrs. Mingott asked for Ellen to come see her. And at first, none of the family actually wants to call Ellen to come see Mrs. Mingott. But then May assures everybody that of course they need to call Ellen. Because this is what Grandma wants. And so we have to do it. And they're like, well, it can't happen right away because the other two servants Already left. And like, well, of course Archer can take this lovely message to the telegraph office before he goes on his trip, because unfortunately, Archer, you can't even see Ellen because she's going to be coming and you're going to be going. Isn't that such a weird coincidence? That's so crazy. That's so crazy that you have to keep going out of town because you said this was, like, super important. You're going to the Supreme Court and everything. So, like, it's crazy. They have to do this thing while she's coming into town after all. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Wow, wow, wow. [00:25:29] Speaker A: That's how I read it. It was like her being like, oh, what a coincidence. You're gonna go to Washington. And then all of a sudden, Ellen has to come here. Isn't that crazy? [00:25:37] Speaker B: That's crazy. Ellen then responds to that telegram requesting her to come home, that she's coming immediately. Archer offers to meet her at the train station. And May makes a comment about how can he possibly meet her when he plans to go to Washington himself. And he's like, oh, my trial was postponed. Yeah, yeah, I don't have to go anymore. She's like, okay. Wow, wow. And it's hinted that May is seriously, like, she knows something's up. But again, unreliable narrator. He's like, I got away with it. It's fine. It's then commented that Buford is struggling and his wife is no longer looked good upon in society. And her pleas to family to not abandon her has done her no good. [00:26:31] Speaker A: If she has not known already. Now she has to know. Mae has to know what's going on because of how obviously she caught him in that lie. It was like, really? We're gonna go with that? Okay, sure. Yeah. We're gonna push past it for now, but that's fine. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Sure, sure. Okay, Bye. Have fun. Tell my cousin I love her. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Archer is at the station and he meets her, but she's not expecting him. And he tells her all about the meeting with Rivieri when she asks if this is like the maze carriage that they're in. Because he wants to retaliate in some way. And he learns that it was actually Rivier that helped get Ellen out of her ex husband's house in the. And he realized that everyone has been wrong about her since the beginning, that she's never actually taken any lovers or done anything untoward, that she's a good person that's been trying to get away from her ex husband. And so he kind of is like, I just can't believe how amazing that you are. And so then she hugs him, kisses him. The carriage jolts, and they part, and she's really backs off from him. And he says, I promise that I'm not gonna steal any kisses. Like, you can relax. Because he wants more than that. He wants them to be together. And Alan's like, okay, so you want me to be your mistress? Then what do you expect us to be doing? Like, I don't really understand what you think is gonna happen. And he's like, no, no. I want to go somewhere where we can just be ourselves. Like a different place, where there's no labels, where we can just be us and we can love each other and that'll be enough. And she's like, I've been a lot of places, and there's no place like that, so I don't know what you really want. [00:28:13] Speaker B: This is basically a murder suicide. [00:28:18] Speaker A: She says that she has no plans for them and that they should just be cousins in laws. You shall be the husband of my cousin, and I will be the cousin of your wife. That should be it. That should be our relationship. Okay? Like, we should stick to that. He gets out because he's taking her to see her old Mrs. Mingott, who had the stroke. And so he just gets out before they get to the house and is like, okay, I'm just gonna leave. I. I have business to do. And then she goes away because he's saying, like, I can't do this. This is too much for me. I'm losing it here. Like, this can't be it. And she's like, dude, what do you think is happening to me? You have a wife, and you have my family supporting you, and you have society supporting you. And I have what? And you're the one that's losing it. Okay, dude, fine. Get out of the car. [00:29:06] Speaker B: It's very true. So at dinner, May tells Archer that Mrs. Mingott's health has improved. This makes him viral. And he's like, may will die young, and maybe she will set me free and all that. It was a weird moment. And then a week later, he calls on Mrs. Mingott just so he can see Ellen. And Mrs. Mingott says that Ellen is staying there while she recovers, so he can basically see her whenever. And then she asks Archer to support her decision to have Ellen stay there and to actually also help her increase Ellen's allowance so that she can have more money. And Archer immediately is like, yep, yep, yep. All good. Okay. [00:29:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And I thought that she was just softening. She's such a sweetie. Because even in this section it says, and Ellen, the second day she got here, she went to Mrs. Beaufort's and was like, you know that the Beauforts, who have been nice to me. And I'm also gonna take your carriage to see the Beaufort. So that everybody sees your carriage in front of the Beauforts. And she let them take the carriage. And she's just softening. Even though she's not, like, allowing it to happen, she's allowing it to happen. Archer is sure that Ellen hasn't chosen to stay just because of financial reasons. And thinks that it's because she changed her mind about being close to him. Instead of going home, he starts to walk down Fifth Avenue. And he's by the Beaufort's house when he sees Ellen coming out after visiting her cousin. And he asks to see her tomorrow somewhere they can be alone. But there are people that are walking by. And so he kind of has to, like, do it quickly so they don't see what's happening. And so they say, yes, we'll meet tomorrow at an art museum. And so they go to an art museum. And she says, okay, well, I'm here. This is what you want. Now we can meet in secret places. And, like, we can be clandestine. I can be your mistress. And he says, no, that's not what I want. I don't want us to be hidden. I want us to be together, just not here. She thought that it would be better this way so that they wouldn't do any harm. And then she asks if he wants her to go home to see her husband after they do this. She keeps saying, after we do this once, And I'm like, you're expecting, like, to meet together once, to actually do the deed, and then after that you're supposed to leave? Is that what we're insinuating? I wasn't entirely sure about that because it was like, I'm gonna meet you once more, and then after that once, I'm going to leave. Are we gonna meet the once? And then I have to go to my husband after this. And I'm like, are we meeting once more after this? I don't know. It seemed weird. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it was literally, they're gonna see each other one more time. And then she's going to go back to her husband or something. [00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So he says, no, I don't want you to go back to your husband. But, like, she decides that she's not staying here. And so she says that she'll see him once more the day after tomorrow. They both leave. He Goes home and he waits for May because May's been out all day. And Mae says when she comes home that she's been talking to Ellen since. It's been a really long time since they'd been together and they'd really talked. And May says that she may have judged her unfairly at times. But then she adds that Ellen doesn't exactly make it easy on her family for going out and being with all these unreputable people. And that she goes and sees Mrs. Beaufort and makes sure that the carriage is out front and all this stuff. Then they start to leave for dinner, and she puts her arm around him, saying that he hasn't kissed her all day. It was interesting. And I just feel like it's gonna continue to go downward. [00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:32:31] Speaker A: And I'm not entirely sure how it's gonna resolve at this point. I wasn't entirely sure what the ending of this book was going to be. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah, me neither. I was like, they get together, right? No other ending made sense to me. And so the ending that actually happened didn't make sense to me. I was like, where? What? Okay, so they're at dinner at the Van der Liedens, and basically the hosts say that they're unhappy that Ellen has been to see Mrs. Beaufort. And they're, like, just being like, you know, prudes. And then we skip to the opera, where Archer is sitting there feeling super guilty about his intentions to be with Ellen while his wife is sitting next to him in her wedding dress. Which is like a tradition back then, is you would wear your wedding dress a couple of times, I guess. She's literally sitting next to him in her wedding dress. And he suddenly. I don't know why, feels like he needs to confess and tell May all about Ellen. And he gets me to leave early with him. And then they get home, and he's about to tell her when she's like, oh, by the way, Alan's going back to Europe. And he's like, okay, good night. Like, that's it. [00:33:47] Speaker A: The only way that I understood this was she had a conversation with her and was like, hey, we are one. We make decisions together as a couple. You know, we're really one in this situation. And so I just need you to know that we're. We're in this situation as one, as a couple. I really wanted him to see you all those times that he went to go see you. We are one. We are a strong unit. And so she's like, you need to get the fuck out. [00:34:12] Speaker B: I told you this. Knew the Entire time. [00:34:14] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's definitely what I read from that situation of her being like, this is me laying down the law. We're done here. You need to leave now. So the Archers are now having their first major dinner party since they've been married. And they are so popular that everybody sent their confirmation back. Even the van der Ludens, who never leave their house. They're giving Ellen a send off before she goes to Europe. And once she's in Europe, if he goes to see her, he doesn't think that she'll be able to send him away. So he is already making plans before she even leaves to possibly go and see her. Pretty soon, literally in this dinner conversation, then he starts talking to other people about going on a trip around the world to make an excuse to go and see Ellen. Family finally knows that she never had an affair. That's what he found out when he was talking to his lawyer friend. And then also May is the one that insisted on throwing Ellen this going away dinner. Apparently Ellen and her aunt, the Marchioness are going to leave tomorrow for Russia. At dinner, he perceives everyone around him thinking that him and Elle Ellen are lovers and that this whole thing is the safe face for everybody. For everybody to be like, no, no, she's leaving now. Goodbye, Ellen, no problems anymore. And he's like, I don't know why, but I just think that everyone thinks that. Even while he's saying this though, then he's like talking to people and he's like, who wants to go on a trip around the world with me while his, like, mistress is going off to see these people? I'm like, no wonder they think that you guys are together. Anyway. He sees something in Mei's eyes that also makes him think that maybe Mae finally sees it. It finally makes him realize, oh, you haven't been as slick as you thought, my man. Like, I think she sees it too. These other people also see it. Everyone knows, oh, wow, May figured it out. So Ellen is saying her goodbyes and he walks her out and they basically just don't even say anything. And she leaves. That's it. Then he goes home and he sits in his study until May goes up to see him and says, hey, can we talk about the night? And he's like, yeah, I'm just really tired lately. And she's like, yeah, it does seem like you've been tired lately. And he's like, yeah, I think I might take a trip soon to, like, I don't know, India or Japan for like a really Long time, though, you know, Crazy. So weird that somebody just left. But I think soon I'm gonna be taking a trip for, like, a really extended, long period of time to a really far away place. And she says, well, I would go with you, but it just depends on what. I just feel like this is the perfect turn to camera reveal of. Push back the. The dress, arch the back, hands on the tummy, arch the back, and, like, reveal. But who knows what the doctor would say about the baby. She was like, I don't know if the doctors will let me go on this long trip because, oop, I'm pregnant. And I just found out. That's what I'm telling you. Except I did tell Ellen 2 weeks ago when I wasn't entirely sure if I was pregnant or not, that I was pregnant and guess am. So that that makes it work out, right? [00:37:14] Speaker B: And that's it. [00:37:15] Speaker A: And I was so right about her checking her. She literally was like, so we're making this decision together. And also, I'm pregnant. Leave. [00:37:24] Speaker B: Get the F out of here. And that's basically it, because the next chapter is like an epilogue. Sure, it has to do with the main plot, but, like, it feels like an epilogue anyway. We're sitting here 26 years later, we learn that Archer and his wife have been happy. His wife May died of pneumonia about, like, 2ish years ago, and Archer was a good husband to her for the rest of their marriage. He literally was married to her for what, 24 years? No, 25. 25. Because they were a year together. When finally got Ellen out of there. [00:38:01] Speaker A: I thought it said 30 years, but 26 since she had stood there before him, confessing that she was with baby. [00:38:08] Speaker B: Oh, okay. So 26 years ago, we cut to. Archer's oldest son is like, hey, come to Paris with me for a few weeks. And Archer's like, I don't really want to. And he's like, come on. He's like, fine. So he agrees. And they get there, and then while they're there, the son mentions that they're gonna visit this lady named Countess Olenska at her Paris apartment. Archer's like, what did you just say to me? And his son is like, is it true you were in love with her? Archer doesn't really reply. And his son continues on to say that on his mother's deathbed, she told him that his father had given up, quote, the thing he most wanted when she asked him to. And Archer's reply, this bitch never asked me. He's like, she never asked me at all. [00:39:03] Speaker A: And yet he still did it. And he knew exactly why she was asking. [00:39:07] Speaker B: She never asked anything. [00:39:10] Speaker A: And he's like, yeah. Oh my God. No, wait, wait, wait. Let me find that though. Because that was like. Yeah, you two were like silent as a morgue or something like that. Grave as a something. That's. Yeah, that's how you two were. Now I can't find it. [00:39:25] Speaker B: So Archer and his son go to see Ellen, but when they're in front of her apartment building, he's like, I'm not going in. His son ends up going in and Archer just kind of like stands there and he's like visualizing her. And he's like, my imagination is good enough. Basically. [00:39:44] Speaker A: I'm sorry. I found it. Okay, this is actually worse than I thought it was. But it says, no, I forgot. You never did ask each other anything, did you? And you never told each other anything. You just sat and watched each other and guessed at what. What was going on underneath a deaf and dumb asylum, in fact. [00:40:00] Speaker B: That's so mean. He's like, yeah, your marriage was kind of boring. [00:40:06] Speaker A: You guys literally didn't talk. You just stared at each other and were like, I think you're feeling this way. [00:40:11] Speaker B: Like just talk about an unreliable narrator for sure. The whole time he was just thinking he was getting away with it. And that was gospel to him because he just assumed how she felt. Anyway, he's sitting in front of her apartment and he's like, my imagination is good enough. And then suddenly something appears in the window and it's just a servant. And he's like, alright, that's my cue to leave. And he turns around and leaves. And that's the end. He never sees her again. [00:40:40] Speaker A: And this is when I started crying again. [00:40:42] Speaker B: This is when I got mad. I went through all of this bullshit. I read this entire book for this love story that didn't even happen. And then it didn't even happen. And then they go 25 years later and suddenly he gets this chance to see his. His love again. And it's the perfect chance because society has changed and they both still love each other. They're both single and it's his chance. And he's like, my imagination is good enough. Bye. I was so mad. [00:41:16] Speaker A: I can see why you're mad. One never said, this is a love story. We just assumed that. [00:41:22] Speaker B: I assumed it. I don't even know if you did, but I was upset. [00:41:26] Speaker A: I assumed that somebody was gonna end up together. And that's not what was happening. I just feel like when we Signed up for something called age of Innocence. This is maybe what we're thinking about. It's so sad because there are some people that never fully allow themselves to be happy, even when society changes, because they're so stuck in their ways and they just fully say, no, I'm not allowed to do that. And so they just never change. And I think that that's part of being the age of innocence. Like, your innocence is truly lost when you're no longer curious about things and actually willing to try and like a be an innocent again. He can't even have a moment with her because what if it doesn't live up to anything? What if it's not as good as he thinks it is? What if he doesn't actually love her as much as he thought and, like, they're just gonna part ways and they don't have this overarching. Like, they've thought about this entire year. He's literally said he's never cheated on his wife because he's had this enduring love for this woman because he thinks of this fantasy. What if she never lives up to the fantasy? And there is something to that of, you are innocent when you try. And so he's just not going to try. Thinking about it. Like, that is kind of funny. When you think about this being a post divorce story and a guy literally standing outside of his love's house and deciding that it's just easier to not try and then walking away. And this being a post divorce story, I think that's funny. [00:42:48] Speaker B: Why? [00:42:49] Speaker A: Because obviously this woman is writing about this and like, yeah, these men just don't try. Finally, he leaves. When she turns out the light upstairs, it's like, yeah, you're not gonna even go upstairs and even try to see me even once after all these years, you're just going to let me go? Yeah, I'm gonna turn out the light on you. Goodbye. You're done now. That's how it is. And he's just going to leave. He takes that as his cue to leave. It's like you didn't even once actually try to come get me. You always told me you were going to and you never did. And so now I'm not gonna wait for you anymore. [00:43:20] Speaker B: You have dove so deep into this feeling and meaning, and I'm like, just a. I'm a surface level hater girl. Like, you're like, I really resonated with this story and I think it was so beautiful. And I was rooting for them this entire time. And I loved this story. And I thought she was a great writer. [00:43:48] Speaker A: I honestly don't know why I liked this story so much. I did enjoy it, though. I did like it. So there we go. One fan and one non fan. [00:44:01] Speaker B: That's okay, because you do. You don't like Fourth Wing as much as I do. [00:44:06] Speaker A: No, that's. That's true. I mean, I don't hate Fourth Wing, though. [00:44:09] Speaker B: That's true. I'm just a hater in general. [00:44:15] Speaker A: I just think that all stories can teach us something. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but this one taught me to hate everybody. This one's like, you shouldn't ever, ever wait around for a man because he. You know what? If he wanted to, he would. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. That's true. [00:44:36] Speaker B: That's what this story taught me. [00:44:38] Speaker A: That's so true. You're right. That's the biggest lesson. If you wanted to, he would. That's it. [00:44:48] Speaker B: All right. Yeah. We'll talk to you guys next week. What's next? Do we know? It's Starling House. We've already read Starling House, and you guys are gonna love it. [00:44:57] Speaker A: I love Starling House. Else. That was fun. [00:44:59] Speaker B: I did, too. [00:45:00] Speaker A: All right, bye.